[iDC] The difference between community and voices

Thu Oct 1 06:16:55 UTC 2009

Hi Lucia

I think I share your view at least in part, but could you say a little  
more about what you mean by "a lack of attention to action"? Do you  
mean a lack of discussion about what actions might be made possible by  
the theoretical propositions raised in discussion, or do you mean a  
lack of attention to actually-existing cultural and social practice?

FWIW, I agree there is a gendered aspect to the dominant mode of  
discourse on this list (as is true in the political "blogosphere");  
but it isn't reducible to the gender of the actual participants.  
Rather, I feel that the materiality of lived experience (or even the  
specificity of case studies) is constantly backgrounded in favour of  
the most astounding (but at times, really stimulating) abstraction;  
and an at-times visibly strained mode of competitive discourse.

Beyond that I don't have a point, really, and that's OK with me. I  
value "pointless babble".

Jean

On 01/10/2009, at 9:22 AM, Lucia Sommer <sommerlucia at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear John,
>
> As one of the "smaller" voices, who has nonetheless enjoyed a number  
> of the threads on this list, I appreciate the spirit of this post,  
> in asking important questions.
>
> I'm not sure, however, whether the problem is really one of "too  
> much" seamless theory - or whether it is simply a relative lack of  
> attention to action, that can't necessarily be blamed on the "big"  
> voices.
>
> I do also think it would be important to examine the gender dynamics  
> involved in the question of "big" and "small" voices. I have noticed  
> a dynamic on this - and many other - lists, wherein women's  
> contributions to discussion tend to be overlooked / ignored, etc.
>
> Similarly, posts of people newer to a list tend to be ignored to a  
> greater degree. This latter may be at least somewhat unavoidable,  
> due to the nonrational bonds in friendships or acquaintances formed  
> off-list.
>
> Not surprisingly, people find this discouraging and will choose to  
> focus their energy elsewhere, thereby diminishing the multiplicity  
> of voices on a list.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lucia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:08 AM, John Hopkins <jhopkins at tech-no-mad.net 
> > wrote:
> > Social control is real, that's the problem. It is organized by  
> elites
> > and imposed on the different classes, regional groups, ethnicities  
> etc.
> > There are many forms of it. I am claiming that one of them, which  
> has
>
> Dearest List
>
> I am coming to wonder about the presence of powerful authorial  
> voices on mailing
> lists, and the radical departure from the traditional set of BIG  
> voices
> pre-internet that The Network promised, a utopia of pluralism.  Has  
> it come to
> pass?  I don't think so.
>
> As I troll my personal archive of lists (nettime, spectre, 7-11,  
> microsound,
> x-change, etc), I find that all of the lists that I have  
> "participated" in have
> numerous subscribers (most list admins will not divulge the actual  
> numbers,
> though I hereby invite Trebor to), along with a very short tail of  
> posters,
> dominated by a very small clump of BIG voices.  Without hard  
> numbers, but doing
> a sort on poster names in my 15-year Eudora archive on a number of  
> lists the
> percentages run around 1-2% or less are BIG posters (80%+ of all  
> content), with
> another 3-10% taking up the balance and a minor number of single  
> posters.  These
> numbers are calculated on the total number of all posts, and would  
> therefore be
> MUCH more rarified if compared to all readers and subsequently, all  
> subscribers.
>
> What about all those other potential voices out there?
>
> As I was reading yet another soaring post from Brian, I suddenly got  
> the feeling
> I was reading a NYT best-selling novel, a page-turner, compelling,  
> seamless,
> complete in both its content and its style (sometimes self- 
> deprecating,
> sometimes bold, provocative, inviting the reader to question  
> (rhetorically or in
> fact) the conclusions), a FORCE to silence competing views if only  
> through the
> eminent readability, completeness, and intellectual coherence and
> seam-less-ness.  You can read nothing else except through the long  
> text,
> consuming in the process, a largish piece of irretrievable life- 
> time.  Time
> subtracted from embodied praxis.  The network labor of paying  
> attention to BIG
> voices. When the reading is done, the time for action is also spent.
> Theory-as-text or text-as-theory soaking up valuable life-time for  
> praxis,
> action.  And because the reading of this cannot simply stop in mid- 
> word,
> mid-phrase, mid-sentence, mid-paragraph, mid-tome, mid-thread, mid- 
> list
> subscription, more and more life gets absorbed in reading.  One long
> socially-constructed text which keeps action limited to eye-and- 
> finger twitch
> for the duration.
>
> And, by default, then, a dominant, BIG voice talking about action but
> obstructing the actuality.  Is a mailing list a community?
> If community is a situation dominated by a small number of BIG  
> voices and minor
> actions, I guess it is.  Is this a subtle form of social control?   
> what's the
> difference between that and subtle coercion?  (if I don't read, if I  
> don't give
> attention to the BIG voices, is there a bite-back from the social  
> system? I
> think so.)
>
> What does the health of "community" mean if community is literally  
> not more than
> a handful of BIG voices within the collective? (community in quotes  
> largely
> because of this historically repeated suspicion at the illusions of
> techno-democracy (or just distributed creativity) that was embedded  
> at the
> outset of such online "communities")...
>
> Wednesday morning non-threaded meditation commentary.
>
> jh
>
>
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>
> -- 
> Lucia Sommer
> 60 College Street
> Buffalo, NY 14201
> (716) 359-3061
>
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