[iDC] Class and the Internet, New Capitalism, and (True New) Socialism for the 21st Century

Thu Jun 25 11:43:33 UTC 2009

Hi Sean!
This discussion reminds me of the decade and a half in which I studied  
Marxism on the side.  (BTW, I met my husband in a German Marxism  
course.)  One thing I learned that using the distinction between the  
means of production and the relations of production as a tool is  
problematic because the relations of production are part of the means  
of production.  Do we have a Klein bottle here?

I in no way consider myself an expert, but I loved reading Marx and  
Engels and I consider them a foundation of contemporary social  
reserach and crucial to a dialogue about class and socialism that has  
been going on since antiquity. However,  I also think that their ideas  
have been reified or used as fetishes even in this conversation, so I  
enjoy the parts of this discussion that think further. Your last  
counter self comment is in that vein.

Re Trebor's contribution about going places to find out what they are  
really like, i managed to arrange to spend six months in Trebor's home  
town, East Berlin, in 1977 doing research on women in literature and  
film and again for three months in 1981 on a socialist realist film  
director.  I also wanted to get beyond the Cold War and the drummed up  
fear that forced school kids like me to hunker under school desks.  I  
wanted to experience "really existing socialism."  I discovered a  
situation that was far more complex than stereotypes--even then the  
GDR looked like it wasn't sustainable.  The people I met didn't fit  
stereotypes either, party or not.  No one in the US was interested in  
hearing about complexitiy and the GDR then...they already knew  
everything they wanted to know.  My point--I prefer actual case  
studies and examples, e.g. discussing the workforce of youtube and  
google,  rather than a predominance of generalizations that are not  
tested against experience.

By way of introduction, I am now directing an exchange program for  
students from U of California in Berlin.  Love it here.

Best wishes,

Margaret Morse

On Jun 25, 2009, at 5:52 AM, Sean Cubitt wrote:

> I read some stat in the dim past to the effect that 90% (or some  
> equally
> compelling number) of US citizens identify themselves aa middle class.
>
> This wd suggest that class consciousness has also been colonised as a
> hegemonic regime.
>
> On the other hand, more explicitly class-conscious models can be  
> divisive.
> Debate raged in Socialist Worker circles in the 1980s (following the
> establishment of the Party, as opposed to the looser group that  
> existed
> before) as to whether teachers and civil servants were working- 
> class. Those
> coming in from the 'workerist' perspective saw them as culturally  
> different.
> Those form the class-analysis perspective (Christian's 'objective')  
> saw them
> as lacking control over their means of production. Two  
> interpretations: a)
> keeping class solidarity (cultural, 'subjective') maintains the  
> coherence of
> a revolutionary / radical program b) excluding potential allies who  
> share
> the same objective conditions weakens the same program numerically.
>
> In the case of internet, what exactly are the means of production?  
> In the
> case of computers, 'control' need not imply ownership. In the case of
> networks, ditto (regarding distinctions between bandwidth providers,  
> ISPs,
> regulatory bodies etc). Here ownership is always elsewhere (as in the
> protected zone sof  proprietary software), and control meticulously
> displaced. Ergo there is an objective class structure.
>
> The production of a class consciousness is precluded by the  
> atomisation and
> individuation of terminals. The language issue also raises itse;f: and
> suggests that classic class analysis is premised on something very  
> like a
> national base, with solidarity at inter-national level- unlike our  
> current
> translocal condition. Ergo the networkers of the world constitute a  
> class
> without a consciousness.
>
> (Against my own argument: perhaps in a knowledge economy we also shd
> include knowledge as means of production. The objective analysis  
> becomes
> difficult, and opens up on the perspective of 'general intellect' as  
> an
> organising principle in addition to traditional class analysis)
>
> I really shd be marking . . .
>
> Sean
>
>
>
> On 25/06/09 11:20 AM, "Christian Fuchs" <christian.fuchs at sbg.ac.at>  
> wrote:
>
>> Brian brought up an interesting question:
>>
>>> Is it possible to conceive a class as Marx did,
>>> without a notion of a potential class consciousness?
>>>
>>>
>>> Is it important
>>> in your theory to understand the audience as, at least
>>> potentially, a class with a consciousness, a class for
>>> itself? If so, how would you -- or do you -- see such
>>> consciousness developing and expressing itself?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I think you can conceive class in subjective terms based on class
>> consciousness and in objective terms based on the position in the
>> relations of production. In Hegelian Marxism, this distinction is  
>> based
>> in the distinction between being-in-itself, being-for-itself,
>> being-in-and-for-itself. Marx distinguished between class-in-itself  
>> and
>> class-for-itself.
>>
>> For me, the fundamental aspect is the class-in-itself that exists  
>> even
>> if there is no class consciousness. The important political  
>> question is
>> how a class-in-itself becomes a class-in-and-for-itself. People like
>> Ulrich Beck have a purely subjective, idealistic notion of class,  
>> which
>> allows them to argue that a lack of class consciousness means that we
>> live in a post-class-age, a risk society that is not a class society,
>> etc. I think class is more important than ever, becaue the objective
>> class differences are so huge. My analysis is that objectively
>> (concerning the means of production) we are as close to communism as
>> never before, the means of production have a highly socialized and
>> co-operative character - the Internet is characteristic of it -, but
>> subjectively (concening class consciousness and ideology) we are so  
>> far
>> from communism as never before. This is a highly paradox situation.  
>> The
>> question therefore is how a class-in-itself can become a
>> class-in-and-for-itself. This can only be the result of a politcal
>> process, and there is no automatic transition to this state, it can  
>> only
>> be self-organized by human subjects. It is a question of political
>> strategy and of class struggle, to which there are no pre-given or
>> pre-defined answers. So the question boils down to: What are the
>> perspectives for class struggles today? And in respect to media:  
>> Which
>> role can ICTs besides their dominative character have  
>> constructively in
>> class struggles?
>>
>> It is hard to generalize asusmptions about the class consciousness of
>> Internet users from theory - here empirical research is also needed  
>> in
>> order to identify potentials. For me it is rather hard to see and
>> identify radical class consciousness on the Internet, so I think  
>> these
>> are more objective potentials than subjective ones, which is to say  
>> that
>> there are more co-operative potentials in technology than critical
>> consciousness on the Internet. There are huge potentials for human
>> development, but they are not-yet realized, today they remain largely
>> unrealized. Many question are opening up here that cannot be answered
>> easily...
>>
>> Best, Christian
>>
>>
>>
>>> best, Brian
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>
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