[iDC] How does social media educate? :: a playlist in response to danah

[Ulises]

John Sobol,

Do we really need to resort to making our own pencils before attempting a
critique of dominant modes of production and consumption? Is a critique of
capitalism unnecessary if we are able to derive happiness and meaning through
bicycle rides to the beach, gifts exchanged between lovers, etc.? (you forgot to
mention cute puppies) Is questioning how we enact sociality "bullshit" that
"means nothing," even if we might struggle with how we articulate those
questions? Should we stop examining the dynamics of participation in fan
cultures just because some people really digg their indy music, or are able to
create and disseminate their own music through new technologies?

T.J. Rivers said that "we are potentially most ignorant of the impact of
technology at the very time when we are most assured that we understand it." So
I hope it's OK to continue to question our understanding of social media. Having
said that, I do like the fact that you seem to suggest that we are potentially
most unable to articulate our critiques of technology at the moment we are most
assured of the effectiveness of our methods. Thanks for that reminder.

The 'playlist' was a composite of various author's contributions, not just my
own, so I'll let others jump in and respond to you if they wish.

Cheers,

Ulises





----- Original Message ----
From: john sobol <john at johnsobol.com>
To: Ulises <arsalaan1-idc at yahoo.com>
Cc: iDC at mailman.thing.net
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 11:44:12 PM
Subject: Re: [iDC] How does social media educate? :: a playlist in response to danah

On 14-Feb-07, at 10:13 AM, Ulises wrote:
>
> 01. How Much Is That Doggie In The Window? :: sociable web media (even 
> when
> operating within 'open' models) exists in a capitalist economy; it 
> cannot exist
> prior to its commercialization

unless you make your own paper and pencils and presses and TVs and 
microphones and antennae the same is true of all literate tools and 
mediated communications
this means nothing really

>
> 02. Can't Buy Me Love :: the architectures of participation in 
> sociable web
> media are determined primarily by the dynamics of a market economy, 
> which raises
> ethical questions because capitalism is inherently anti-social
>

do you mean that blogging (for example) exploits the world's poor 
because any blogger will at some point have made a commercial 
transaction within the capitalist market economy in order to access 
hardware and software and connectivity?
This may on some level be be true but by this same logic every phone 
call between lovers or bicycle ride to the beach is unethical as well. 
Kind of a loopy argument.


> 03. If I Knew You Were Coming (I'd've Baked A Cake) :: yes, social 
> media objects
> operate in both a market and a gift economy, but the 'gift' is always
> subordinate to the opportunities to derive profit from it; the best we 
> can hope
> for is hybrid capitalism

your first assumption (that the 'gift' is always subordinate to the 
opportunities to derive profit from it) again subscribes to an abstract 
logic divorced from the lived experiences of real people. Does your 
argument also hold true for people who buy each other wedding rings, or 
for parents who buy their kids birthday presents, all of which also 
involve profit-making and taking? I'm not saying this to rationalize 
capitalism's nefarious consequences but let's not pretend we're atomic 
robots rather than feeling people.

your second somewhat forlorn assumption (that the best we can hope for 
is hybrid capitalism) strikes me as missing the point. In light of the 
familiar weaknesses of capitalism, are you suggesting that settling for 
a substantial structural readjustment to capitalism (i.e. hybrid 
capitalism) to accommodate far more p2p-ness and 'gift-driven' (i.e. 
relationship-based)  economic relationships is some kind of consolation 
prize? Maybe in academic socialist parlors where dreams of the 
old-school Marxist revolution still live on, unaffected by the history 
of 20th century political pathologies and outcomes, 'hybrid capitalism' 
would be considered a lame result compared to hypothetical revolutions 
to come, but from where i sit, it sounds like a helluva step forward.
>
> 04. This Unavoidable Thing Between Us :: sociable web media *can* be 
> potential
> resources of anticapitalist struggle; however, the actualization of 
> these
> resources cannot be framed in terms of bridging the 'digital divide' 
> in order to
> grant everyone access to the 'marketplace' of the public

maybe not. i waffle on this one. i'd just like to advance the argument 
that sociable web media, or whatever you want to call it, is not just a 
potential player in an anticapitalist struggle but is rather inherently 
anti-capitalist itself, despite all of your emphasis on market 
economics and the costs of accessing infrastructure. I'm saying the use 
of these tools is anti-capitalist, even if the platform is not. 
Obviously we disagree as to which is more important and more 
transformative of the other. It's anti-capitalist because it's of the 
process economy. Literate capitalism is a product-based economy.

>
> 05. It Smells Like Teen Spirit :: sociable web media controlled by 
> corporations
> produces plural monocultures, which should not be confused for diverse 
> or
> authentic social spaces

again, maybe so. plural monocultures are all around us though. When we 
ride the bus, when we walk through our neighbourhoods, shop at stores, 
go to rock concerts or raves or school or work or other countries. 
Maybe its not only corporations that create them. And although i am 
quite comfortable to posit diversity as a vital ideal (while also 
recognizing the value of cultural integrity), I think the equation of 
diverse social spaces with authentic social spaces is extraordinarily 
arrogant. Bullshit really.

>
> 06. Where The Hood At :: the network is a limited model for organizing 
> social
> realities; nodocentrism can be particularly corrosive to local 
> connections, as
> it makes anything not plugged-in to the network virtually invisible 
> (despite the
> hype, the hyperlocal does not enhance but subordinate the local and 
> the social
> to a market economy)

good point. yes it's true, if it can't be googled it doesn't exist. so 
you go across town to MegaShoe for your shoe repair because the cobbler 
around the corner doesn't have a website. Possibly in the hybrid 
capitalist economy this will change. we have yet to see the build-out 
of the networked economy in physical space, and this may occur at a 
surprisingly local level in the years to come. or not.

>
> 07. Alone Together :: the social scripts of networked individualism 
> leave people
> more alienated and prone to control by state and corporate interests,
> monopolizing social and personal desire

this just kills me. as opposed to what? watching 7 hours of TV a day? 
"monopolozing social and personal desire" - you must be joking. I have 
a 21-year old who sits next to me at work who has over 100,000 mp3s on 
his hard drive. And what knocks me out is he knows all about all the 
indie bands who made them, almost none of which I've ever heard of. In 
his own way he has extremely refined taste and that taste is very much 
rooted in his deeply-felt personal aesthetic, which reflects no 
corporate agenda I've ever seen. And he seems typical of a lot of young 
folks I know. They'd piss on you if you told them their desires and 
tastes were monopolized by the state or by MTV. And that's not even 
getting into the whole realm of user-generated content, which is really 
the point here. What planet do you live on that you can tell a 16 year 
old or a 66 year old that their myspace page featuring their personal 
musical wankings of whatever quality are corporate-programmed 
inauthentic crap?

> "
> 08. We Don't Need No Education :: we need to not just teach/learn 
> 'with'
> sociable web media, but 'against' it; we can struggle to design for 
> more
> autonomy and diversity, but we need to simultaneously develop the 
> 'literacy' to
> question the assumptions behind it

um ok. what else is new.

>
> If I have missed some important 'tracks,' please feel free to add them 
> or re-mix
> them to your heart's content.

how about these

09. Sympathy Fucks for the Devil
do businesses stand to become more responsible and responsive if we 
make them more transparent by inserting sociable web media into their 
internal and external communications? Let's find out.

10. Money That's What I Want
can poor oralists with refined dialogical, improvisatory and 
non-literate knowledge-sharing skills acquire more money and better 
living conditions by leveraging their facilitative skills as 
community-builders in the hybrid capitalist online sphere? Let's find 
out.

11. I Scream You Scream We All Scream for I Scream
are a billion people sharing stories on a commercial p2p platform 
better off (socially and economically and spiritually) than a million 
people sharing stories on a  commercial p2p platform? Let's find out.

js

-
www.johnsobol.com
bluesology • printopolis • digitopia

On 14-Feb-07, at 10:13 AM, Ulises wrote:

<excerpt>

01. How Much Is That Doggie In The Window? :: sociable web media (even
when

operating within 'open' models) exists in a capitalist economy; it
cannot exist

prior to its commercialization

</excerpt>

unless you make your own paper and pencils and presses and TVs and
microphones and antennae the same is true of all literate tools and
mediated communications

this means nothing really


<excerpt>

02. Can't Buy Me Love :: the architectures of participation in
sociable web

media are determined primarily by the dynamics of a market economy,
which raises

ethical questions because capitalism is inherently anti-social


</excerpt>

do you mean that blogging (for example) exploits the world's poor
because any blogger will at some point have made a commercial
transaction within the capitalist market economy in order to access
hardware and software and connectivity? 

This may on some level be be true but by this same logic every phone
call between lovers or bicycle ride to the beach is unethical as well.
Kind of a loopy argument.



<excerpt>03. If I Knew You Were Coming (I'd've Baked A Cake) :: yes,
social media objects

operate in both a market and a gift economy, but the 'gift' is always

subordinate to the opportunities to derive profit from it; the best we
can hope

for is hybrid capitalism

</excerpt>

your first assumption (that the 'gift' is always subordinate to the
opportunities to derive profit from it) again subscribes to an
abstract logic divorced from the lived experiences of real people.
Does your argument also hold true for people who buy each other
wedding rings, or for parents who buy their kids birthday presents,
all of which also involve profit-making and taking? I'm not saying
this to rationalize capitalism's nefarious consequences but let's not
pretend we're atomic robots rather than feeling people.


your second somewhat forlorn assumption (that the best we can hope for
is hybrid capitalism) strikes me as missing the point. In light of the
familiar weaknesses of capitalism, are you suggesting that settling
for a substantial structural readjustment to capitalism (i.e. hybrid
capitalism) to accommodate far more p2p-ness and 'gift-driven' (i.e.
relationship-based)  economic relationships is some kind of
consolation prize? Maybe in academic socialist parlors where dreams of
the old-school Marxist revolution still live on, unaffected by the
history of 20th century political pathologies and outcomes, 'hybrid
capitalism' would be considered a lame result compared to hypothetical
revolutions to come, but from where i sit, it sounds like a helluva
step forward. 

<excerpt>

04. This Unavoidable Thing Between Us :: sociable web media *can* be
potential

resources of anticapitalist struggle; however, the actualization of
these

resources cannot be framed in terms of bridging the 'digital divide'
in order to

grant everyone access to the 'marketplace' of the public

</excerpt>

maybe not. i waffle on this one. i'd just like to advance the argument
that sociable web media, or whatever you want to call it, is not just
a potential player in an anticapitalist struggle but is rather
inherently anti-capitalist itself, despite all of your emphasis on
market economics and the costs of accessing infrastructure. I'm saying
the <italic>use</italic> of these tools is anti-capitalist, even if
the platform is not. Obviously we disagree as to which is more
important and more transformative of the other. It's anti-capitalist
because it's of the process economy. Literate capitalism is a
product-based economy.


<excerpt>

05. It Smells Like Teen Spirit :: sociable web media controlled by
corporations

produces plural monocultures, which should not be confused for diverse
or

authentic social spaces

</excerpt>

again, maybe so. plural monocultures are all around us though. When we
ride the bus, when we walk through our neighbourhoods, shop at stores,
go to rock concerts or raves or school or work or other countries.
Maybe its not only corporations that create them. And although i am
quite comfortable to posit diversity as a vital ideal (while also
recognizing the value of cultural integrity), I think the equation of
diverse social spaces with authentic social spaces is extraordinarily
arrogant. Bullshit really. 


<excerpt>

06. Where The Hood At :: the network is a limited model for organizing
social

realities; nodocentrism can be particularly corrosive to local
connections, as

it makes anything not plugged-in to the network virtually invisible
(despite the

hype, the hyperlocal does not enhance but subordinate the local and
the social

to a market economy)

</excerpt>

good point. yes it's true, if it can't be googled it doesn't exist. so
you go across town to MegaShoe for your shoe repair because the
cobbler around the corner doesn't have a website. Possibly in the
hybrid capitalist economy this will change. we have yet to see the
build-out of the networked economy in physical space, and this may
occur at a surprisingly local level in the years to come. or not.


<excerpt>

07. Alone Together :: the social scripts of networked individualism
leave people

more alienated and prone to control by state and corporate interests,

monopolizing social and personal desire

</excerpt>

this just kills me. as opposed to what? watching 7 hours of TV a day?
"monopolozing social and personal desire" - you must be joking. I have
a 21-year old who sits next to me at work who has over 100,000 mp3s on
his hard drive. And what knocks me out is he knows all about all the
indie bands who made them, almost none of which I've ever heard of. In
his own way he has extremely refined taste and that taste is very much
rooted in his deeply-felt personal aesthetic, which reflects no
corporate agenda I've ever seen. And he seems typical of a lot of
young folks I know. They'd piss on you if you told them their desires
and tastes were monopolized by the state or by MTV. And that's not
even getting into the whole realm of user-generated content, which is
really the point here. What planet do you live on that you can tell a
16 year old or a 66 year old that their myspace page featuring their
personal musical wankings of whatever quality are corporate-programmed
inauthentic crap?


<excerpt>"

08. We Don't Need No Education :: we need to not just teach/learn
'with'

sociable web media, but 'against' it; we can struggle to design for
more

autonomy and diversity, but we need to simultaneously develop the
'literacy' to

question the assumptions behind it

</excerpt>

um ok. what else is new.


<excerpt>

If I have missed some important 'tracks,' please feel free to add them
or re-mix

them to your heart's content.

</excerpt>

how about these


09. Sympathy Fucks for the Devil

do businesses stand to become more responsible and responsive if we
make them more transparent by inserting sociable web media into their
internal and external communications? Let's find out.


10. Money That's What I Want

can poor oralists with refined dialogical, improvisatory and
non-literate knowledge-sharing skills acquire more money and better
living conditions by leveraging their facilitative skills as
community-builders in the hybrid capitalist online sphere? Let's find
out.


11. I Scream You Scream We All Scream for I Scream

are a billion people sharing stories on a commercial p2p platform
better off (socially and economically and spiritually) than a million
people sharing stories on a  commercial p2p platform? Let's find out.


js


-

www.johnsobol.com

bluesology • printopolis • digitopia